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Post by Angel on Jul 17, 2009 14:14:44 GMT -5
I have been thinking about this subject a whole lot, and it seems as though every day I can find another reason to dislike America. Believe me, I can appreciate the things we are given and I know there is alot worse places to be in the world, but it seems like the negatives way out weigh the positives.
Yes, freedom of speech, freedom of religion and all of that is very nice. And from the outside it seems that everything is fair. However, it seems as though everything in America contradicts itself in someway. Freedom of speech, yet certain words, phrases, and jokes are banned from television, or if nothing else, frowned upon on society. We are supposed to be against things like persecution for one's beliefs and ideals yet we still shun people who are different. The homosexuals and the transsexuals, the atheists, and plenty others.
It just sickens me that I live in a country in which a man can owe close to 20,000 dollars in child support debt and get away with nothing but a 3 month license suspension. However, on the other hand, you have a man who owes the government 5,000 in taxes, and he is locked in jails for 2+ years.
You can look a single mother with three children, who's spouse left in the night one day, never to return. The government will deny her food stamps, housing, and welfare. However, you can find a single mother with one child, who's spouse abused her (no matter how severe) and the government will take action. Wellfare, child support, food stamps, housing, family care plans, ect.
IT SEEMS as though the country of America is sending the message that the more harm that is inflicted on you, the better off you will be. You can debate it all you want, but in the long run, it is the woman who was abused that will live better.
IT SEEMS as though the government doesn't care about anyone's actual problems, as long as they get their money at the end of the day.
IT SEEMS as though America is giving off the impression that it is filled with ignorant, greedy, money-hounds and will give more money to the rich before giving money to the poor.
IT SEEMS...
And you know what, it is hard to argue it.
But, my ultimate question is if it is wrong to hate your country, for whatever reason. Should we be patriotic, or is it wrong to go against where you live?
(I thank PAPERMARIOGUY3 from the Nsider forums for this conversation starter.. I tried to alter it in my own words, but I kept some of his words that I couldn't have said better myself.)
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Post by ready2brawl on Jul 17, 2009 15:02:48 GMT -5
GASP! THREAD STEALER!
I think it's wrong to hate a person, group of people, etc. for any reason. But I think it is OK to hate their actions. I think that people who say "I hate America" don't really think about what they're saying. They're just using it as a scapegoat for the actions that it has made.
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Post by ness11 on Jul 17, 2009 17:22:53 GMT -5
I find it fine to say "I dislike what this person/group/organization does and their action or how they treat me," but you shouldn't hate a person for some sort of reason like "They were classes," or "They are Hispanic,"; you get he idea like Devaux said.
However, I somehow find it unjust to hate America. Among the terrible decisions our last president made, their is hope. I'm a patriotic person, I support the troops, I don't support any sort of war. I'm certain our current president, given time (Bush took eight years to screw up our country, cut Barack some slack), will certainly restore out country to the glory it use to have.
Our country is great, there has to be an exception to certain things because if we all went around cursing the whole time we would be considered very crude know wouldn't we? There's an exception to everything, that's how life has to work, just like the English language.
While the (past) government didn't always make decisions I liked, I'm confident our Senate and President will see us through.
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Post by Angel on Jul 17, 2009 17:43:31 GMT -5
Blaming our whole of the countries problem is definitely not something to throw on President Bush, even though everyone likes to do that nowadays. This has been accumulating due to just the sorry state of economy anyway, and this sort of thing was just inevitable due to the way things are..
If anything, there has been growth.. but I'm talking about the government at a whole. I feel our entire structure is a bit off, and while it's one of best out there.. it still could use a large amount of work.
The amount of energy our government puts into limiting it's people and getting into our daily lives could be used to better the economy, to actually make a different in area's that actually matter. But no, we focus on making sure that they have control over what everyone is doing all the time.
I just feel like this country has it's priorities all around, but all countries do.
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ManOfSteele
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Post by ManOfSteele on Jul 17, 2009 19:47:11 GMT -5
I have a question, because you seem to me like you're mixing up a few things. Are you hating the country? Or the government?
While they may be one same being they are two separate ententes.
The way I see it, your country is where you live and the foundation and ideals on which it was founded upon. Here in the U.S., as you said is Freedom of Speech, Freedom of Religion, all that good stuff. Government, is the screwed up people who give a man 2 years in prison for owing $5000 dollars in taxes while a man who owes $20,000 in child support gets a 3 month license suspension.
I love my country. I do. I love the fact that I'm able to have the liberty and freedom that other people in the world don't just because their leaders outlaw it. You really get a perspective on things when and or if you go outside the country. I've been to China and there so much bullsh*t that people have to put up with just because it's a communistic government.
But the government? No way, they're so dumb and stupid it makes me sick. Suddenly there's all sorts of crap going on just because someone up in Capital Hill cares too much about how the public sees them that they loose all morals, lie and cheats, and loose track of why they're there and what's right. Law and politics have become a clusterf*ck of craziness.
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Tony Redgrave
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Post by Tony Redgrave on Jul 17, 2009 20:12:58 GMT -5
lol. its fine to dislike groups and officials and all but saying that you dislike a country seems a tad ridiculous. I'm not going to lie to you. America's history is covered with blood, genocide, and all that jazz in which if you take the time and look back, you would say "thats terrible.." but.. I could say the same for just about every nation and form of government you can toss at me.
As for things like the government not exactly having the peoples interest in mind, thats the result of what happens you gain power that comes with a position. Its hard to resist those urges. Same goes for any other place. Its just in america with our media, you hear about the bad quite often.
As for the bill of rights and all, you have to understand that there is no such thing as absolute freedom. The whole point of government is that you give up some of your freedom in exchange for protection. Having absolute freedom of speech wouldn't go over well and considering all that we can do and say on television, its not really so bad.
As for being against persecution, we can try all we like but judgment will happen no matter what. Its human instinct to judge based upon sight and beliefs and like I always say, people usually shun what they don't understand. but.. I can't explain all just yet =O I'm on my crappy computer .-. and if some parts don't make sense, I understand lol. What I'm trying to say is america like anywhere else has its share of dirt. Its not fair to just throw the whole country under the bus
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Post by eiron on Jul 17, 2009 22:31:03 GMT -5
Government bashing! YUS! Time for the Poli Sci student to step in.
First of all, yeah, discrimination is still out in force in America. If it makes you feel any better though, discrimination is out in force everywhere. Disenfranchising blacks in France, ethnic cleansing in the Balkans, murder of migrant workers in Russia, isolation and harassment in China, women and well, everyone in the Middle East, don't get me started on Africa, South America's not looking so hot, anti Islamic movements across Europe, ect, ect, ect. It's not an American problem. It's a human problem.
As for Big Brother, consider this. Politicians in Washington get their political heft by making their constituents feel all warm and fuzzy. For instance, Senators from the Bible Belt and Midwest push holier than thou philosophies, Old Northwesterns back the auto industry, Californian Senators back whatever's trendy (lol). yadda yadda yadda. In America, the government is, to a degree, a reflection of its people. Discriminatory policies and views are pushed because that's what the majority wants. Same thing goes for the media, TV broadcasters, and other information providers. They air what gets views and is popular to talk about.
So yes, some things about America really suck. But we're working on it, and it beats the hell out of a lot of other places. Most other places. Don't forget the good that comes along with everything else.
To answer your question though, no. It's not wrong to hate your country, in whatever way you mean by that. But I think your hate is misplaced.
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Sharpay
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Post by Sharpay on Jul 17, 2009 23:14:05 GMT -5
I don't think it is wrong to hate your country, even I hate this country. My opinion is that the constitution and the amendments need to be changed/updated because we have progressed in years with technology. For example: I believe that ALL kids up to 19 years of age should be randomly tested to see if they are taking drugs/alcohol, but it breaks the civil rights act. Another example is that people have the right to own guns. I like that law, but someday our technology will develop a "gun" that is more powerful than any gun, then something has to change about the law.
Every country including the United States has its own positive and negative sides. Even if somehow this country was perfect, there will always be someone who does not like certain laws.
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Post by Angel on Jul 18, 2009 3:24:36 GMT -5
Not mixing up anything, the government is the face of the country. A country is defined by it's laws and political policies. If this was a conversation about people I would say, "Is it wrong to hate human kind? Which in fact.. I do. Let's disscus that in another thread though. -- Protection from WHAT exactly? Other governments? That's why I feel that all of them should be done away with completely. They use "protection" as excuse to butt into things they shouldn't butt into. How is controlling the economy and what people are allowed to express "protection"? How is favoring one set of people over another their right? What happened to equality, and choice? -- I just don't like settling for this. It just shouldn't BE this way. It should have been better from the start, and far it be from me to pat them on the back for making it a bit better. I know that your doing better, but the fact that hide you hide knowledge from the people, your sneaky and tend to act almost corrupt to the point where I've begun not to trust the fact that they are working for people.. I expect better from anyone. Just because it's the best of the bag of fail doesn't mean it's good.  --- All and all, I don't have "pride" for my country. It feels like this place isn't really that much better than other places in the world, and the collective of countries need to be reformed from scratch. But that's just how I feel. |
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Tony Redgrave
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Post by Tony Redgrave on Jul 18, 2009 13:59:39 GMT -5
Lol protection from other people Angel. If we didn't have government, we would have lawlessness were anyone can do whatever they wish, even freely break into your house, and kill without any repercussions. If you do away with any form of order, all your going to be left with his chaos. As for equality, it only exists as far as us being human beings no matter our skin color and whatever. Aside from that, equality isn't really logical if you think about it. Stuff like communism fails because it tries to enforce equality and say everyone is in the same class and yet since the person in charge is running things and has absolute control, it isn't equal. -- Eh. there is only so much you can improve on Angel and nothing is always going to work out just fine. America is the most successful experiment in the world right now as far as government lol. This whole system is still.. fairly new and all things considered, its been working out well. And as I said before, there is corruption everywhere and arguably a lot more in other places Something like national reform and the coming together of nations is just a bad idea in general but thats for another thread. 
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Post by sasukess on Jul 18, 2009 15:31:37 GMT -5
I hear you Angel. I'm not happy about it either. This nation was founded on freedom and equality. However, somewhere along the line corruption leaked into the government. Lies and greed now rule over this country more than anything else. Somehow the government became the very thing the founding fathers sought out to escape from. This is little more than a monarchy, if not is.
In my opinion, The USA peaked at around 1776. From then on, it was all downhill. Those who sought for the promised land, though they helped make our nation grow, also helped in it's downfall. Those who were already here looked down upon those who were coming, giving raise to racism and crime, among other things.
The idiots in DC aren't helping either. All they are doing is sitting on their asses enjoying wine and lobster while the rest of us fall deeper into poverty. The worst of them all was Bush Jr. I'm not sure how, but he made this country fall deeper into it's already bad state. I don't know if he just sat around doing nothing, or if he actually worked to make it worse. Either way, he almost sent us into another Depression. I'm hoping that Obama can somehow clean Bush's mess.
The Constitution? Sure, it was founded on pure ideals for freedom. Now the government just uses it to make us feel good, despite being in such a horrible state. They keep it up to shove in our faces from time to time so we don't storm DC. If anyone did try to storm DC, the government would just say, "But you guys can vote. Who else can do that?" And we, for some reason, fall for it everytime, leaving them in the lap of luxury while we make picket signs.
All the people in DC are doing is giving more money to the already insanely rich. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be if they have some sort of agreement to keep each other in power. Greed rules both groups, and the country suffers because of that. While they enjoy caviar, lobster, and champagne, the rest of us survive on fast food.
And who knows how many secrets there are within the government. I'm sure they have high-tech equipment in the FBI and CIA, while we get their trash. I wouldn't be surprised if they had flying cars and laser guns, yet keep them to themselves. If that is true, we won't see them until the government deems them obsolete. I don't know if they are doing so so we can't hurt each other, or if they just want it all to themselves. Either way, they keep too many secrets from us for no apparent reason.
I think 6 paragraphs should do for now. As I have stated before: I think the US peaked around the time they signed the Declaration. Sure, we have had some good times after that, but all in all, things just went downhill from there.
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Post by eiron on Jul 18, 2009 16:50:16 GMT -5
I just don't like settling for this. It just shouldn't BE this way. It should have been better from the start, and far it be from me to pat them on the back for making it a bit better. I know that your doing better, but the fact that hide you hide knowledge from the people, your sneaky and tend to act almost corrupt to the point where I've begun not to trust the fact that they are working for people.. I expect better from anyone. Just because it's the best of the bag of fail doesn't mean it's good. Sorry Angel, but the world you're dreaming of doesn't exist. People build their governments and people are imperfect. All and all, I don't have "pride" for my country. It feels like this place isn't really that much better than other places in the world, and the collective of countries need to be reformed from scratch. But that's just how I feel. You don't have to be proud of your country, hell, I was embarrassed by it for the last eight years. But to say that it isn't much better than other places (whatever that means. Europe? Russia? Iran?) borders on the ridiculous. In much of the world, you could be imprisoned or murdered for saying what you've said. Here, people are engaging in a civilized, mildly thought provoking conversation. Reforming countries from scratch isn't going to happen, and it wouldn't make sense to do so. You want a country run by your ideals. The problem is that everyone does. You happen to be living in the confused conglomerate that was derived from that. I hear you Angel. I'm not happy about it either. This nation was founded on freedom and equality. However, somewhere along the line corruption leaked into the government. Lies and greed now rule over this country more than anything else. Somehow the government became the very thing the founding fathers sought out to escape from. This is little more than a monarchy, if not is. Claiming America has turned into an Oligarchy could be supported, but not Monarchy. In my opinion, The USA peaked at around 1776. From then on, it was all downhill. Those who sought for the promised land, though they helped make our nation grow, also helped in it's downfall. Those who were already here looked down upon those who were coming, giving raise to racism and crime, among other things. Yeah, 1776 was the best year ever for America. Slavery ftw. The Constitution? Sure, it was founded on pure ideals for freedom. Now the government just uses it to make us feel good, despite being in such a horrible state. They keep it up to shove in our faces from time to time so we don't storm DC. If anyone did try to storm DC, the government would just say, "But you guys can vote. Who else can do that?" And we, for some reason, fall for it everytime, leaving them in the lap of luxury while we make picket signs. If that's true, why is Barack Obama President and not John McCain? You know, the latter of whom was backed by the upper crust and the corporations? Your votes matter. All the people in DC are doing is giving more money to the already insanely rich. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be if they have some sort of agreement to keep each other in power. Greed rules both groups, and the country suffers because of that. While they enjoy caviar, lobster, and champagne, the rest of us survive on fast food. See Military Industrial Complex. Also see my last response. And who knows how many secrets there are within the government. I'm sure they have high-tech equipment in the FBI and CIA, while we get their trash. I wouldn't be surprised if they had flying cars and laser guns, yet keep them to themselves. If that is true, we won't see them until the government deems them obsolete. I don't know if they are doing so so we can't hurt each other, or if they just want it all to themselves. Either way, they keep too many secrets from us for no apparent reason. Lawl. |
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Post by Angel on Jul 18, 2009 18:04:20 GMT -5
Well, all and all, I can see that my position is mostly viewed as silly and idealistic. Oh well, that's how I enjoy being. I won't give up on my morals and how I feel that the world should be. I feel like that giving up and just going 'This could never exist,' or "Just a dream.." means that I'm choosing to give up on it.. and I refuse to.
All around, I just believe that I shouldn't be viewed as a horrible person because I live in America and don't agree with it's policies or actions. I think some places do a few things better even.. America is more controlled by money than other nations. I mean, look at Britian. They are doing what in this day and age should be common sense. Universe access to high speed internet.. anywhere. The Internet has grown the point where it should be done like that.. the internet has become too invaluable and the.. the things that you could do with everyone in the country having easy access to it is tremendous. But that's something that America would never consider simply because they think, "But what about all the money we are going to lose?" etc. etc.
I am not satisfied by our country, and probably won't ever be. They do some things right, but they do some things wrong.
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Big Boss
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Post by Big Boss on Jul 18, 2009 23:57:26 GMT -5
I don't hate my country, im lucky to live in a place where we have a strong minded people, low hunger, and a richer country. Its the government that governs us i hate.
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Post by NBAplaya8484 on Jul 19, 2009 12:58:28 GMT -5
I don't hate my country, im lucky to live in a place where we have a strong minded people, low hunger, and a richer country. Its the government that governs us i hate. same here. our country (America) has so much more to offer than anyother country in the world which is why alot of people immigrated here because of all the financial opportunities. |
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