kunekune
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aloivia
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Post by kunekune on Jul 19, 2009 15:29:26 GMT -5
Protection from WHAT exactly? Other governments? That's why I feel that all of them should be done away with completely. They use "protection" as excuse to butt into things they shouldn't butt into. How is controlling the economy and what people are allowed to express "protection"? How is favoring one set of people over another their right? What happened to equality, and choice? I know this is just frustration speaking because everyone knows that eliminating governments would create anarchy and give rise to even worse governments. Anarchy is a transitional element, not an actual form of non-government because it does not work, and when people run wild and kill each other a group will rise up and offer protection to those who cannot help themselves i.e. a new government where the people rely solely upon their generosity. It just won't work, but I'm confident you are aware of this. Regarding the original question, it's wrong to hate your country, but it's not wrong to hate the government's decisions if they conflict with your own. I don't agree with the decisions the government is making currently so you could say that I hate the guys in D.C., but I don't hate my country even though they helped to elect the people in office. |
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Post by Angel on Jul 19, 2009 15:45:05 GMT -5
Hmm.. no, I don't appreciate being called a dumbass. I realize that part of the thing, but that's on the general assumption that people can be plotted out by a collective. Something sound but not definite and can be disproved when it comes to individuals. Individuals that show unique and strong traits themselves can change the usual pattern of the collective.. so no, I do mean that.
There are good people, and bad people everywhere. I don't favor this countries "people" over any others, or favor the governments actions over any other. Hate is a strong word, but I don't care for either.
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Post by Dobs on Jul 19, 2009 16:42:26 GMT -5
I just don't like settling for this. It just shouldn't BE this way. It should have been better from the start, and far it be from me to pat them on the back for making it a bit better. I know that your doing better, but the fact that hide you hide knowledge from the people, your sneaky and tend to act almost corrupt to the point where I've begun not to trust the fact that they are working for people.. I expect better from anyone. Just because it's the best of the bag of fail doesn't mean it's good.  Sorry Angel, but the world you're dreaming of doesn't exist. People build their governments and people are imperfect. You don't have to be proud of your country, hell, I was embarrassed by it for the last eight years. But to say that it isn't much better than other places (whatever that means. Europe? Russia? Iran?) borders on the ridiculous. In much of the world, you could be imprisoned or murdered for saying what you've said. Here, people are engaging in a civilized, mildly thought provoking conversation. Reforming countries from scratch isn't going to happen, and it wouldn't make sense to do so. You want a country run by your ideals. The problem is that everyone does. You happen to be living in the confused conglomerate that was derived from that. Claiming America has turned into an Oligarchy could be supported, but not Monarchy. Yeah, 1776 was the best year ever for America. Slavery ftw. If that's true, why is Barack Obama President and not John McCain? You know, the latter of whom was backed by the upper crust and the corporations? Your votes matter. See Military Industrial Complex. Also see my last response. And who knows how many secrets there are within the government. I'm sure they have high-tech equipment in the FBI and CIA, while we get their trash. I wouldn't be surprised if they had flying cars and laser guns, yet keep them to themselves. If that is true, we won't see them until the government deems them obsolete. I don't know if they are doing so so we can't hurt each other, or if they just want it all to themselves. Either way, they keep too many secrets from us for no apparent reason. Lawl. Thank you. |
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Post by eiron on Jul 19, 2009 17:01:22 GMT -5
I try, Dobs. Regarding the original question, it's wrong to hate your country. So it would be wrong for a German Jew in 1940 to hate Germany? |
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Big Boss
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Post by Big Boss on Jul 19, 2009 17:16:20 GMT -5
I try, Dobs. Regarding the original question, it's wrong to hate your country. So it would be wrong for a German Jew in 1940 to hate Germany? but erion, that was in 1940, and its more political than anything else. |
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Post by eiron on Jul 19, 2009 17:51:10 GMT -5
I try, Dobs. So it would be wrong for a German Jew in 1940 to hate Germany? but erion, that was in 1940, and its more political than anything else. It was 1940. And? The events that led to the creation of Nazi Germany and the forces within it during its existence were political, social, economic, nationalistic, religious, and backed by the popular majority. The freedom to express discontent and the courage to do so are perhaps the greatest things America and its people have. |
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kunekune
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aloivia
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Post by kunekune on Jul 19, 2009 18:14:09 GMT -5
I try, Dobs. Regarding the original question, it's wrong to hate your country. So it would be wrong for a German Jew in 1940 to hate Germany? At the moment genocide is not occurring in the United States because of nationality, so as far as I'm concerned this is an outlier. |
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Tony Redgrave
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Post by Tony Redgrave on Jul 19, 2009 18:15:33 GMT -5
Well said Eiron. But still, regarding the question, I don't think its wrong to say hate your country but it seems silly to me. What did the land do to you? xD Your problem would be with the people holding power so the question is rather shotty anyways
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Post by eiron on Jul 19, 2009 18:49:05 GMT -5
At the moment genocide is not occurring in the United States because of nationality, so as far as I'm concerned this is an outlier. Then you are saying its wrong to hate America right now. But genocide has occurred as popularly supported public policy within America, and turning a blind eye on genocide where we were obligated not to has happened within the last 10 years. Isn't that just as bad? And most importantly, saying that it is wrong to criticize or hate your own country smacks of totalitarianism. Not an outlier at all. Whether you agree with it or not, the right to say and feel that way is a fundamental part of how this country works. |
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kunekune
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Post by kunekune on Jul 19, 2009 19:22:11 GMT -5
At the moment genocide is not occurring in the United States because of nationality, so as far as I'm concerned this is an outlier. Then you are saying its wrong to hate America right now. But genocide has occurred as popularly supported public policy within America, and turning a blind eye on genocide where we were obligated not to has happened within the last 10 years. Isn't that just as bad? And most importantly, saying that it is wrong to criticize or hate your own country smacks of totalitarianism. Not an outlier at all. Whether you agree with it or not, the right to say and feel that way is a fundamental part of how this country works. I'm not familiar with the genocide that is occurring in the United States. Pray tell me, who is being ruthlessly slaughtered within our country and who is solely to blame? If it is not happening within my country, then what need is there for us to venture into another country's business and save the day? The United States is not a police force of the world, so matters in other countries are not our primary concern. And am I so totalitarian that I would force others to not hate their own country? I don't care if you do or not, I just don't see a point in hating the people. Nazi Germany was the result of one man's rise to power and subsequent manipulation of the German people, playing on their defeat and humiliation resulting from WWI. HE was the instigator; the people may have elected him because they thought he truly wanted to save the people of his country, but this does not mean the people hated the Jews. Hitler spread his own philosophy and corrupted the people of Germany for a short time period. So a Jew need not hate his country, but simply the government which defiled his country (people). Once Hitler left, Jews were no longer massacred and the German people became humiliated at their behaviour and of their late leader. The people were not at fault, simply the circumstances they were living in. The People do not always agree with the government, and in this situation manipulation was the name of the game and the government, not the people, was to blame (too much rhyming x3). |
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Post by eiron on Jul 19, 2009 21:25:51 GMT -5
Then you are saying its wrong to hate America right now. But genocide has occurred as popularly supported public policy within America, and turning a blind eye on genocide where we were obligated not to has happened within the last 10 years. Isn't that just as bad? And most importantly, saying that it is wrong to criticize or hate your own country smacks of totalitarianism. Not an outlier at all. Whether you agree with it or not, the right to say and feel that way is a fundamental part of how this country works. I'm not familiar with the genocide that is occurring in the United States. Pray tell me, who is being ruthlessly slaughtered within our country and who is solely to blame? If it is not happening within my country, then what need is there for us to venture into another country's business and save the day? The United States is not a police force of the world, so matters in other countries are not our primary concern. Kindly note the words "has" and "obligated." No genocide is currently being carried out within the United States as you've implied I've said. However, history does not look kindly upon our treatment of, say, Native Americans. As for America policing the world, yeah, I've gotta agree with you. Except for when we are legally obligated to do so. (Though shrugging of GENOCIDE as not NOT OUR PROBLEM seems a bit harsh for me, I dunno.) Behold, the Article 3 of the United Nation Charter: This convention bans acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. It declares genocide a crime under international law whether committed during war or peacetime, and binds all signators of the convention to to take measures to prevent and punish any acts of genocide committed within their jurisdiction. The act bans killing of members of any racial, ethnic, national or religious group because of their membership in that group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, inflicting on members of the group conditions of life intended to destroy them, imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group, and taking group members' children away from them and giving them to members of another group. It declares genocide itself, conspiracy or incitement to commit genocide, attempts to commit orcomplicity in the commission of genocide all to be illegal. Individuals are to be held responsible for these acts whether they were acting in their official capacities or as private individuals. Signators to the convention are bound to enact appropriate legislation to make the acts named in Article 3 illegal under their national law and provide appropriate penalties for violators.People suspected of acts of genocide may be tried by a national tribunal in the territory where the acts were committed or by a properly constituted international tribunal whose jurisdiction is recognized by the state or states involved. For purposes of extradition, an allegation of genocide is not to be considered a political crime, and states are bound to extradite suspects in accordance with national laws and treaties. Any state party to the Convention may also call upon the United Nations to act to prevent or punish acts of genocide.I am specifically referring to the Rwandan Genocide of 1994. As you may have guessed from the passages I highlighted, the United States is a signator of the Charter and was called upon along with France, Britain, and Belgium specifically to provide the means for stopping the genocide. And did not. The United States provided no help, because "The United States of America does not have friends, it has interests. And we have no interest in Rwanda." That's a perfectly justifiable reason for looking the other way while the one million people you swore to protect are hacked to pieces with machetes, right? Or am I the only person who sees a problem with that? And am I so totalitarian that I would force others to not hate their own country? I don't care if you do or not, I just don't see a point in hating the people. Nazi Germany was the result of one man's rise to power and subsequent manipulation of the German people, playing on their defeat and humiliation resulting from WWI. HE was the instigator; the people may have elected him because they thought he truly wanted to save the people of his country, but this does not mean the people hated the Jews. Hitler spread his own philosophy and corrupted the people of Germany for a short time period. So a Jew need not hate his country, but simply the government which defiled his country (people). Once Hitler left, Jews were no longer massacred and the German people became humiliated at their behaviour and of their late leader. The people were not at fault, simply the circumstances they were living in. I think you're seriously misunderstanding something. Hitler was an instigator of many horrific policies in Nazi Germany, but Antisemitism had been rampant across all of Europe for centuries. Hitler may have brought it to the forefront, but the people of Germany were WILLING participants. Yes they were ashamed and humiliated after WWI, but that does NOT excuse allowing nationalism to justify what was happening. It was not the work of the government alone that resulted in the Holocaust, but the effort of the ENTIRE population, the ENTIRE country, and it was therefore entirely justifiable to hate the entire country. (And for the record, the German people weren't instantly awash in shame and guilt after their defeat. Nationalism of that fervor doesn't die out so easily. America overlooked the lingering shadow of Nazism to deal with Communism instead.) But back on topic. I brought up Nazi Germany because whether you agree with it or not, whether you think its right or not, being able to disagree with, or even hate your country is part of what makes America great. (And because a certain someone used generalizations.) |
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kunekune
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Post by kunekune on Jul 19, 2009 22:01:33 GMT -5
Ok you win but watch your absolutes when you make statements as well. To blame the entire country for the problem is to make a hearty generalization yourself.
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Post by Dobs on Jul 20, 2009 11:47:18 GMT -5
I love you, Eiron.
Anyone see Hotel Rwanda? Saddest. Movie. Evar.
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Ejak
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Post by Ejak on Jul 20, 2009 13:30:14 GMT -5
Its not wrong to hate your country at all, its ones opinion and no one can help that. But sitting there and watching our corrupt government take our freedoms and robbing the innocent of thier money is. We are a nation can cause change from within, our constitution makes it so thats possible to cause change. but the fact is no one's doing a damn thing about it. we keep voting these scum bag senators in office. the majority of people in this forum are of my generation. we are the ones who will come to power next we are the ones who are the ones can cause that change. this countries laws are not rigid and are like water constantly changing and its possible to change this. the fact is our nation is dying and no one cares enoygh to wanr to do anything about it.
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Post by eiron on Jul 20, 2009 21:21:12 GMT -5
I love you, Eiron. Anyone see Hotel Rwanda? Saddest. Movie. Evar. No, but I did watch Frontline's Ghosts of Rwanda. One of the most miserable experiences of my life. |
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