An Unprovoked Rant.

[Dobs]

Alright, I have a point here, so bear with me. Several, actually.

I’ll start off with a comparison between this forum and the forum for the web series “There Will Be Brawl.” There’s a point to this comparison, really. The two forums of are about the same size, they have 611 members, we have 666. But that is where the similarities end, sadly. On our front page, there are thirty-nine boards as viewable by members. On TWBB, there are three. There are nineteen staff members on SBF (Staff being counted as anyone with a different colored name). On TWBB, there are eight moderators. SBF has had infinity+ various threads concerning forum rules. TWBB has had one thread, fourteen rules in total. We added seven lengthy rule changes yesterday.

Last comparison, I promise. Our latest poll concerning the new name of this forum, a relatively important thread, had twenty votes. On TWBB, there was a thread in which the pronunciation of the word “lakitu” came into discussion. A poll was added to the thread, and forty four votes were cast.

And now for the ever elusive point I had promised at the onset of this little rant of mine. What is my point in bringing up all these seemingly random statistics? TWBB has less of EVERYTHING, except for one very important aspect of a forum. Activity. Threads made here are lost in the gratuitous amounts of superfluous boards, and go unseen. The extra staff members overproduce rules and boards built for a forum of several thousand, in a domain built around 600; maybe 50 of which are regular posters. The result of all of this extra crap (for lack of a better term) is less activity, less members, and essentially, less fun.

What I’m pushing for here is simplicity. Simplicity is the key to success in pretty much everything in life, including your average internet forum. Complex systems lead to complex problems with complex, often out of reach, solutions. TWBB is a simple, fun forum. SBF is a clusterCENSORED of boards, staff, and stupidity.

I’m not saying we should become TWBB, it’s a different kind of place. The point of the comparison was to show a healthy forum as compared to this one, which is a cancer child on life support. But it’s my illegitimate child that I helped raise from its infant stages, and I’d rather not pull the plug. Euthanasia analogies aside, I have a few ideas that I think could do this forum some good. If you’ve been paying attention for the former half of this post, you’ll probably have predicted a few of them already.

1) Less Boards. The amount of boards we have is simply ridiculous. All that is needed is the following.

a. General Forum
b. Gaming Forum
c. Role Playing Forum
d. Spam Forum

Anything that cannot exist under one of the four aforementioned categories in a single sub-board is either a stupid idea, or will not be trafficked enough to constitute anything larger.

2) Less Staff. More people generate more useless crap. Keep the few who provide few, good ideas, and chuck the rest. Seriously, fire some people.

3) Rule Overhaul. One simple set of rules for the forum, and one simple set of rules for the RP will suffice. Stop trying to create laws, covering loopholes and being overly specific. Create simple rules, and let the mods use their own judgment in how to interpret and enforce them.

4) This one is a bit different than my others, so please, bear with me. Less Threads. By creating less, bigger threads, people are more encouraged to actually post in them. Allow me to explain via example, shall I? The best example I can think of at the moment is the SSB4 roster fiasco. Pretty much every active member here has created a hypothetical SSB4 roster at some point and created a thread about it. Why not have one single “SSB4 Roster” thread where everyone posts their rosters? Or better yet, just the “SSB4 Speculation Thread.” This gets rid of sever unused boards, and would create one frequently used thread. This kind of thinking in organization would really cut down on our useless boards and threads.

That’s all I have for you today Smash Bros Fansite Forum, and that is your name. I hope you heed my advice, because honestly if you don’t, I don’t see myself ever really enjoying this place again. And that would be a bloody shame.

[Angel]

I agree with everything except the rule thing, as I explained to the people in the thread where I suggested our new rules. Rules are not meant for covering loopholes for people to exploit, in this instance. The rules I am enforcing helps staff have a firm but loving guideline to dealing with actions, because I have a lack of confidence in the fairness in the way they moderate at times. I do NOT trust individual judgment at times, and I feel there needs to be things to fall back on when favoritism and unfair practices are well.. practiced.

The biggest difference in TWBB and this site would be how we have always placed staff, how we moderate, and who are the moderators.

I'm just going to C&P. Edit: Not really worth reading anymore, see below.

SPOILER: Click to show

Because events during the night have made me realize that certain people might have the wrong idea on why these things are being requested for addition.

I am not trying to turn this site into other sites, or follow blindingly into how they run things. In the past, Super Smash Bros. Fansite was run relatively extremely lax. Every form of doing things has it's charm, and a lax way of doing things sure promotes fun and freedom of speech.. but rules can do that as well without giving troublemakers a free pass.

After a conversation with Big Boss and others, my worries about the way staff deals with issues was compounded a bit more. It seems almost as if play favorites with our members, something we shouldn't do. When you don't have thing specified, then you risk every single action being fully on the moderator's discretion.

And face it, our moderators are real, too real people. Perhaps a bit too vividly shown. The members know every single one of our faults, every single one of our fights.. so it's almost as if they are basically in here themselves. They know almost every issue that we are disagreeing with because we bring it on the c-box and then they can argue about it too. We are real, with very visible flaws.. and while this is not a bad thing.. it does come with a lowering of respect for a moderator.

And when the members feel more equal with the moderators on all accounts, they end up feeling like they have every right to disagree openly with every ban, every rule, and every situation as it comes. Their opinions are welcome but they are not staff, they don't need to get their nose in every tiny decision, especially when it doesn't involve them. Our site sadly ends up little more than a high-school lunch room, everyone gossiping and spreading rumors about people. "Oh, did you hear that Devaux banned ____ again?" "Angel is passing out 5 minutes so much lately, I think she has a personal problem with ____". Members start realizing how human we are to the point where occasionally they can feel personally outed by the right people. They can hear things abotu how certain moderators feel about them, they see people acting in a favoritism manner. Every two person fight ends up splitting up to one side of the lunch room that is with this side, and one side of the room that is with the other.

This goes on both ways, but we need to fix things during our revival.. or just at all. I think this is the perfect time to try tighten up the ways and change the way we moderate. I want use to take a professional, less personal aspect to all the decision and rulings on these boards. I don't want to have another post like this one end up in a IM conversation where in the course of 10 minutes, 5 different people have been contacted, including people like Dobs who are no longer in the staff. Your first instinct should not be to go and blow up and every single person and try to instantly pull them on your side. Give every person the chance to have their own voice on a situation.

When members have problems with rulings, we need a simple, non-public way for them to voice their concerns. We almost never forum ban on this site, so PM's is a nice system. Ghost or the Moderator-Who-Banned in question can post their appeal on the Staff Lounge, and they can be given a chance.

But this is not a war we are supposed to be fighting on the forum. Every situation needs a guideline, as much as possible to prevent needless drama. Forum rules are not meant to make members feel like their words are silenced, forum rules are meant so people understand that every situation has a way to do it. It's a way so people know where the forum stands on every situation and that way, it get's rid of one the thing that started this rant.

Biased. If we have a certain procedure on what things are allowed, and what things aren't. It allows to have a way to make sure we are not being biased. When we allow each moderator to do their own thing.. like before, you end up with me who deletes a post feeling like I was in my every right to do it, but no one else agrees. I hadn't actually broken any rules, but that's because there was no rule for that kind of situation and no formal way of dealing with it. When you don't have a formal way of dealing with a situation baised will always come in.

I'll say it right now. If Key is flaming, most people will ban him on sight. But if someone like Ghost came in their and let something slip.. someone would give him a warning. Now to most people this wouldn't be that big of a deal. I mean, Key has gotten banned so many times, so why shouldn't he just get banned? He knows the rules, he's just a bad member. While Ghost is a upstanding member that deserves a warning... your starting to see what I'm talking about?

There is a baised when it comes to our everyday dealings because people are not equal. No matter how much times a person has caused trouble, once they have that "clean slate" their slate should actually be clean. If they are not in probation they should be given every respect they deserve. Making fun of "idiots or n00bs" is something that happens all the time. It's not okay to make fun of Angel, but it's okay to make fun of Key because again, he's a "bad member".

Allow me to quote from Wikipedia, because I feel like it directly involves this situation. Please make extra notice of the text that is bolded.

There is a school of thought that holds that no person is evil, that only acts may be properly considered evil. Psychologist and mediator Marshall Rosenberg claims that the root of violence is the very concept of "evil" or "badness." When we label someone as bad or evil, Rosenberg claims, it invokes the desire to punish or inflict pain. It also makes it easy for us to turn off our feelings towards the person we are harming. He cites the use of language in Nazi Germany as being a key to how the German people were able to do things to other human beings that they normally would not do. He links the concept of evil to our judicial system, which seeks to create justice via punishment—"punitive justice"—punishing acts that are seen as bad or wrong. He contrasts this approach with what he found in cultures where the idea of evil was non-existent. In such cultures, when someone harms another person, they are believed to be out of harmony with themselves and their community, they are seen as sick or ill and measures are taken to restore them to a sense of harmonious relations with themselves and others, as opposed to punishing them.

It goes down to as simple as that. I feel like the moderators hold biased when it comes to dealing with situations with our members.. and with clear guidelines that will not be a problem because their will be a direct procedure on how to deal with things. Rude comments will be rude no matter who said it, and will be able to be warned for. You have to stamp out that their are good/bad members and treat every case as if they are two faceless people that you don't know.. because I'm serious that I feel like this is getting a bit out of hand. And instead of treating things as a "punishment" try to actually work out the situation. Figure out what is going on, but emotionally detach yourself. Taking sides emotionally will never bring harmony because your in your own mind labeling one side as good and one side as evil.. or right and wrong, or bad, or whatever wording you want to use.

These rules are not meant to make things more difficult, to try to make things to stif. They are meant to protect the members and the moderators' themselves from situations that would otherwise turn dramatic.

For TL;DR's

SPOILER: Click to show

[serraskai]

TWBB?
I'm on that site. ^^

[Cell]

All of this make complete sense, and what many of us have been thinking for awhile, but now it's set in front of our eyes, and taking action in a similar accordance would make this forum thrive with life once again.

EDIT: And yet I agree with Angel on certain points, a giant clusterfuck list of rules will only make things more claustrophobic and complicated. A simple, smaller list of rules can easily cover a majority of the issues that may arise on the forum.

[Dobs]

Nov 2, 2009 2:13:00 GMT -5 Angel said:

The rules I am enforcing helps staff have a firm but loving guideline to dealing with actions, because I have a lack of confidence in the fairness in the way they moderate at times. I do NOT trust individual judgment at times, and I feel there needs to be things to fall back on when favoritism and unfair practices are well.. practiced.

That's a problem with staff, not rules. If the judgement of a particular staff member isn't trusted by admins or other staff members, then that person shouldn't be in staff.

After a conversation with Big Boss and others, my worries about the way staff deals with issues was compounded a bit more. It seems almost as if play favorites with our members, something we shouldn't do. When you don't have thing specified, then you risk every single action being fully on the moderator's discretion.

Again, this is an issue with staff members. See point #2.

And face it, our moderators are real, too real people. Perhaps a bit too vividly shown. The members know every single one of our faults, every single one of our fights.. so it's almost as if they are basically in here themselves. They know almost every issue that we are disagreeing with because we bring it on the c-box and then they can argue about it too. We are real, with very visible flaws.. and while this is not a bad thing.. it does come with a lowering of respect for a moderator.

More staff problems, not rule problems. With less staff members, less staff debacles will make their way into the cbox. With less rules, and more staff involvement and interpretation, the members will respect those remaining mods to a much greater extent.

And when the members feel more equal with the moderators on all accounts, they end up feeling like they have every right to disagree openly with every ban, every rule, and every situation as it comes.

They do. That's what I'm doing right now. This coming from the person who encouraged member involvement so much? If you don't want the members involved, decrease staff/rule size, and keep it in the staff board.

Every situation needs a guideline, as much as possible to prevent needless drama.

Yes. Guidelines. As Captain Barbosa once wisely said, "They're more like guidelines than actual rules." And thats how a forum should be. Pirate-like.

Biased. If we have a certain procedure on what things are allowed, and what things aren't. It allows to have a way to make sure we are not being biased. When we allow each moderator to do their own thing.. like before, you end up with me who deletes a post feeling like I was in my every right to do it, but no one else agrees. I hadn't actually broken any rules, but that's because there was no rule for that kind of situation and no formal way of dealing with it. When you don't have a formal way of dealing with a situation baised will always come in.

Right now the forum is running on your bias, Angel. I noticed after posting this that clusterCENSORED is no longer acceptable in SBF land. I thought that we got rid of most censorship on the forum after I left? Guess not.

Pick an average value of what's acceptable in the new small staff, and let each staff member interpret that as they will within reason.

I'll say it right now. If Key is flaming, most people will ban him on sight. But if someone like Ghost came in their and let something slip.. someone would give him a warning. Now to most people this wouldn't be that big of a deal. I mean, Key has gotten banned so many times, so why shouldn't he just get banned? He knows the rules, he's just a bad member. While Ghost is a upstanding member that deserves a warning... your starting to see what I'm talking about?

Sorry to have such an ass solution for this but, that's too bad for key.

If they are not in probation they should be given every respect they deserve.

In my book, people who make asses of themselves deserve less respect than those who don't.

Allow me to quote from Wikipedia

lol

As for the little spoiler. I only agree with 2/3 of the points made

[yureihime]

Dobs has just won a ton of points in his post. I agree with everything you said man and it makes a lot of sense. I don't expect Angel to agree with your point of view though, so i think you shouldn't waste your time explaining it. Its going to turn into a stalemate and eventually you'll both burn out and the thread will be abandoned and/or forgotten. However I believe that this needs to be discussed with everyone.

[Big Boss]

Nov 2, 2009 2:57:36 GMT -5 @yureihime said:

Dobs as just won a ton of points in his post. I agree with everything you said man and it makes a lot of sense. I don't expect Angel to agree with your point of view though, so i think you shouldn't waste your time explaining it. Its going to turn into a stalemate and eventually you'll both burn out and the thread will be abandoned and/or forgotten. However I believe that this needs to be discussed with everyone.

BB will remember the night of "The Dobs"

[Angel]

I do not see what positive will come out of getting rid of rules that have already been established through a vote as a good thing. That's why they are there. Getting rid of them won't really be the saving grace anyone is expecting, nor will it solve why this site is unreachable. Again, I agree with all other points and hope that simplifying the staff, the site's structure, and other things might happen.

If I might suggest something so bold. If the majority of the site believes that we need a smaller staff, the site itself should maybe vote on the members of such a thing.. since there is no fairer way of doing it and will represent what the site wants when it comes to the people in power.

Because I don't want to see a staff vote on who to keep and who to take out.. it just feels so.. barbaric. And I feel like one person should have this decision either because he is one person with one view. This includes you Dobbeh.

[Dobs]

I don't see how what the members think matters. Extra big staff causes problems; it should be fixed.

Guidelines, not rules. Guidelines. Get rid of the rigid rules in favor of fun flexible guidelines.

[Angel]

Sounds fine.. I just want everything to be as fair as possible. As long as that is achieved.. I don't care how many rules we have..

If we had the warnings back.. I might not have even cared at all.. The optional warnings poopie is what has made me go so gung-ho about this anyway..

[Dobs]

I'm completely oblivious to the fact that something happened to the warnings system.

That's not really the issue that's being discussed here though =/

[Angel]

Oh wai, I decided I don't like the idea of 4 categories/boards and the idea that we need to make ONE thread for everything. This isn't TWBB.

We need alot less, but that's too small.

[Dobs]

I know it isn't TWBB, and I said that. But its not just how they do things, that's pretty much how it works on every other forum I've ever been on but this.

Smaller is better. Simple is better. If we have to sacrifice "Serious Discussion" in favor of putting serious threads in the General section like everybody else, then so be it. If we have one gaming board with a thread to talk about each popular game series instead of a boards separated by console, we're much better off. Oh noez! Each artist and writer can't have their own boards!? Apocalypse!

In a few days I'll give you the layout on how I think it should be done, you may take it or leave it as you wish.

[lloydexphere]

make the rp like it was back in the day..

But, yes! I agree with Dobs on this.
We do have too many moderators, and I feel like I would too, enjoy coming on this forum like I use to when I was sonicoutruns if we do all that other stuff. (changing boards, etc..)

[Dobs]

RP fixing is another battle entirely >_<